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Author Topic: [ANN][RIC] Riecoin: constellations POW *CPU* HARD FORK successful, world record  (Read 662628 times)
gatra
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September 11, 2014, 03:03:19 PM
Last edit: September 11, 2014, 04:01:27 PM by gatra
 #3521

Would it be worth changing the PoW from sextuplets to "septuplets with a chance of meatballs octuplets and nonuplets" ?

might be, but this would not only be a hard fork: all the miners would have to be updated too.
if we only added the superblocks, those mining in a pool wouldn't be affected - only the pool server would have to update the riecoin client.
You are proposing a more aggresive move.

Would the current computing power in Riecoin mining be enough for world records then ?

We would need a difficulty of 1060 (in 7-tuples). Current computing power (1462 in 6-tuples) would translate to a difficulty of approx 705 for 7-tuples. So changing block time to 4 minutes (or having 4 mins superblocks) would do the trick. If we had 4 min blocks we would find a world record size 7-tuple every block and a record octuple once or twice a week. Some years for a nonuplet, but it would be one hell of a nonuplet, exceeding current record by orders of orders of magnitude.
edit: I'm tired, my math is shaky... it's not 4 minutes, it's 2 hours. Still doable with superblocks, but forget about finding nonuplets - or octuplets - this way.

If we were going to change the PoW in such way, we'd better make it accept alternatively 7-tuples, 8-tuples and 9-tuples each with different difficulties, so we could easily break all records every day.

I made a lame attempt at giving room for this kind of change in the future by adding a "primes" value hardcoded to 6 in the "getwork" and "getblocktemplate" calls, thinking that maybe in the future this could be variable. But the thing is that we would have to update all the mining software, and see which patterns we would look for, not only the number of primes. So we would have one block be 6, the next 7a, then 7b, 8a, 8b, 8c, whatever, then repeat.

edit: looks like for 25-tuples, there are 18 possible patterns all with diameter 110... I guess we wouldn't go that far


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September 11, 2014, 03:33:32 PM
 #3522

might be, but this would not only be a hard fork: all the miners would have to be updated too.
if we only added the superblocks, those mining in a pool wouldn't be affected - only the pool server would have to update the riecoin client.
You are proposing a more aggresive move.

Yes, you're right.

If we were going to change the PoW in such way, we'd better make it accept alternatively 7-tuples, 8-tuples and 9-tuples each with different difficulties, so we could easily break all records every day.

In that scenario would it be possible to accept 6 to 9 tuples?
Or more precisely allow the current miners to keep working on the "old" 6 tuples, while allowing new miners to mine greater tuples? perhaps with a small bonus to give an incentive to upgrade

The appeal of world records is strong Grin

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September 11, 2014, 03:59:02 PM
Last edit: September 11, 2014, 06:05:50 PM by gatra
 #3523

In that scenario would it be possible to accept 6 to 9 tuples?
Or more precisely allow the current miners to keep working on the "old" 6 tuples, while allowing new miners to mine greater tuples? perhaps with a small bonus to give an incentive to upgrade

The appeal of world records is strong Grin

yes, 6 to 9, to 10, whatever.

Moreover, if my math is right and can be generalized this way, we would break the twin prime record in 11 minutes and the largest prime number in 16hs.
The problem is that verification of each of those blocks would take some minutes, so the client would take a lot to sync. That's why I choose 6-tuplets: easy to verify, hard to find. But if we made it superblocks only once a month, syncing wouldn't be so bad, so it would be possible!
Also, since block verification would take so long, we would be prone to DoS attacks by someone submitting fake blocks that would take a lot to verify.... if we could mitigate this, we would break records from twins to many-plets. Or even the largest prime number. We would be sacrificing a bit of the usability of the currency aspect in favor of the distributed computing aspect of the riecoin project.... and... there's a 150k USD price for primes larger than 100 million digits... I'm starting to think some reengineering of the mining process, and strengthening of the DoS protection could make us get there...

getting too excited, need to think more about this...

edit: verification would take prohibitively long for single primes and twins, even if we did it once per month. Probably for triplets too


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September 11, 2014, 06:50:55 PM
 #3524

hi! I've been away a couple of days. Still debugging the miner's windows issue: I'm almost sure it's a race condition. After that I'll try to check the android wallet with the api

It's hard to keep developping, especially when the price is so low.
THANKS gatra.

Some ppl don't develop just for the money envolved Smiley

Yep they deserve my respections:)

RIC solo mining with XPT miner @ zjuer.net:10034
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September 11, 2014, 09:58:43 PM
 #3525

I'm afraid that doesn't work. Imagine that you did find p-2 and p+18 prime. So you have a septuplet. But, you started from a sextuple so p+12 is also prime. This means that your septuple is also an octuple: it has 8 primes in the range p-2 to p+18. A difference of 20. But Athony Forbes tells us that the minimum distance possible for 8-tuples is 26, so the 8-tuple with distance 20 cannot exist. But we said it did... this absurd comes from assuming you could find p-2 and p+18 both prime.

So the test is needs to include a "p4 or p12 not prime" test as well.

Sorry for any false hope!

Regards,

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September 11, 2014, 10:31:04 PM
 #3526

edit2: fixed & updated zip, now with 122000 primes.

Quick turn around & thanks!

Regards,

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September 11, 2014, 10:53:35 PM
 #3527

ive been following, i agree to verify proof of work of just large prime could be a very long time

would be a great proof of work algo but block times would be very long

edit 1 i am sure you are familiar with this work

http://primes.utm.edu/bios/code.php?code=G13

http://primes.utm.edu/index.html

edit 2 another idea http://primes.utm.edu/curios/first.php

In that scenario would it be possible to accept 6 to 9 tuples?
Or more precisely allow the current miners to keep working on the "old" 6 tuples, while allowing new miners to mine greater tuples? perhaps with a small bonus to give an incentive to upgrade

The appeal of world records is strong Grin

yes, 6 to 9, to 10, whatever.

Moreover, if my math is right and can be generalized this way, we would break the twin prime record in 11 minutes and the largest prime number in 16hs.
The problem is that verification of each of those blocks would take some minutes, so the client would take a lot to sync. That's why I choose 6-tuplets: easy to verify, hard to find. But if we made it superblocks only once a month, syncing wouldn't be so bad, so it would be possible!
Also, since block verification would take so long, we would be prone to DoS attacks by someone submitting fake blocks that would take a lot to verify.... if we could mitigate this, we would break records from twins to many-plets. Or even the largest prime number. We would be sacrificing a bit of the usability of the currency aspect in favor of the distributed computing aspect of the riecoin project.... and... there's a 150k USD price for primes larger than 100 million digits... I'm starting to think some reengineering of the mining process, and strengthening of the DoS protection could make us get there...

getting too excited, need to think more about this...

edit: verification would take prohibitively long for single primes and twins, even if we did it once per month. Probably for triplets too

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September 12, 2014, 12:04:38 AM
 #3528

ive been following, i agree to verify proof of work of just large prime could be a very long time

would be a great proof of work algo but block times would be very long

edit 1 i am sure you are familiar with this work

http://primes.utm.edu/bios/code.php?code=G13

http://primes.utm.edu/index.html

edit 2 another idea http://primes.utm.edu/curios/first.php

yes, thanks! I didn't pay much attention to it before because I hate it how they use the "comic sans" font... Smiley


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September 12, 2014, 12:22:44 AM
 #3529

the font sucks but the ideas for different types of primes with unusual properties, i.e. with x number of consecutive zero's or any number

or with y number of non consecutive intigers (would probbly use a lot more memory)

the variations are endless, not really useful from a 'scientific' standpoint,

do you remember when the rsa used to post the bounties for primes ??

then they just stopped,  i often wondered if they came up with a much more advanced way of factoring and deriving primes that they never bothered to share with anyone else,  probably far fetched but they did pay those bounties and some were for big money ,

they paid them at the time because they needed to know how quickly people could find large primes and factor thier numbers for 'security'

lol

looking back with some of the things we know today it seems kind of funny


i often point out to people that in the 1980's 8 bit encyption was consider ok

lol imagine a few primes 8 digits long was considered 'secure' 

i also often joke that a child with a smart phone can crack that encryption now,


i wonder if in 5 or 10 years if technology will continue to leap ahead and what access 'normal' people like us will have who are doing things because we want to
(not because of the value of the coin like that other person said)

take your time and think it over, the superblock is a pretty neat idea, and i certainly favor anything that can take riecoin ahead of prime coin in the record books and personally i don't care about the value the coin unlike almost everyone else......

i remember reading a paper about 3 or 4 years ago about possible scientific applications of 'unusual' prime numbers but i honestly can't remember what the application was , if it was 'real ' or just a proposal and exactly what they were looking for,  maybe i can find that paper !!

whatever you decide you have my support, especially now that i am comfortable building wallets on the btc 9.x codebase

the most recent build i did as a test of the new iX coin client on 9.2 (coded by ahmed bodi) used open ssl 1.0.1i , qt 5.3.1 and min gw 4.9.1

if you fork the client and don't mind please suggest which versions of the tools you are using if different from the most recent bitcoin tools,

i remember the 8.x series of riecoin used qt 4.8.3

thanks much
ive been following, i agree to verify proof of work of just large prime could be a very long time

would be a great proof of work algo but block times would be very long

edit 1 i am sure you are familiar with this work

http://primes.utm.edu/bios/code.php?code=G13

http://primes.utm.edu/index.html

edit 2 another idea http://primes.utm.edu/curios/first.php

yes, thanks! I didn't pay much attention to it before because I hate it how they use the "comic sans" font... Smiley

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Merge Mine 5 other Blake 256 coins - 6x your hash power  https://www.blakecoin.org/

The obvious choice is not always the best choice.

LOOK DEEPER - Look into the Blake 256 Family -- CC
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September 12, 2014, 06:33:53 AM
 #3530

take your time and think it over, the superblock is a pretty neat idea, and i certainly favor anything that can take riecoin ahead of prime coin in the record books and personally i don't care about the value the coin unlike almost everyone else......

This kinds of discussions makes the value of Riecoin, it's lot more interesting than mixing and mashing hash algorithms!

The value of the coin eventually matter in that if it were high enough, it would incentivize some dedicated prime computing silicon, which eventually could have other uses. I guess NSA & similar have such silicon, but it's definitely beyond the budget of us mere mortals.

Quote
edit: verification would take prohibitively long for single primes and twins, even if we did it once per month. Probably for triplets too

I am surely moving the goalposts here, but would it be possible to amortize the verification over many blocks?
Sort of a distributed partial Rabin-Miller (is that practical and can it be made provable?)

This would obviously have DOS issues, if a superblock is found incorrect after many blocks, you can't go back in time to try another, so that superblock would be "lost"...
It could be alleviated if for the superblock, up to X candidate prime clusters could be "registered" as meta-data, apart from the difficulty requirement, those would only have to pass low-probability primality tests, cheap enough in terms of computing but hard enough to filter spam (possible?). The registration could be allowed for a few blocks after the super-block (to minimize the network stall).
At this point the reward for the super-block would be zero, with tx vout with an amount of zero per candidate (just to keep track of their addresses).

Over the next N blocks, partial rabin-miller tests would be performed on those candidates alongside the usual PoW.
After the N blocks, candidates that failed primality would be rejected, and the superblock reward would then either be split among those that passed the test or attributed randomly.

It all hinges on the provability of a partial Rabin-Miller test, which may be a pipe dream Smiley

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September 12, 2014, 07:57:33 AM
 #3531

This kinds of discussions makes the value of Riecoin, it's lot more interesting than mixing and mashing hash algorithms!

Yes, this coin got me looking into ARM and SMID which I never had before.  I am pretty sure I've got some very clever tricks in my sieve which no one else has considered (well, aside from riecoin there isn't much use for a fast p6 sieve).

I've said it before but this coin is a side project, making profit would be a bonus.

The value of the coin eventually matter in that if it were high enough, it would incentivize some dedicated prime computing silicon, which eventually could have other uses. I guess NSA & similar have such silicon, but it's definitely beyond the budget of us mere mortals.

There are some quite well known Montgomery multiplication design patterns for FPGA's and have been for years, same for binary exponentiation.  I have been wondering if those old crypto accelerator cards could be leveraged into riecoin (that is my pipe dream).  Also the main FPGA makers are supporting OpenCL.  Yes; write OpenCL and compile it into hardware.

I am surely moving the goalposts here, but would it be possible to amortize the verification over many blocks?
Sort of a distributed partial Rabin-Miller (is that practical and can it be made provable?)

...

It all hinges on the provability of a partial Rabin-Miller test, which may be a pipe dream Smiley

This looks like a job for a pool where state across multiple miners can be maintained.  Maintaining validation and reward allocation across a distributed network would be PhD material.

Regards,

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September 12, 2014, 09:00:04 AM
 #3532

This kinds of discussions makes the value of Riecoin, it's lot more interesting than mixing and mashing hash algorithms!

This looks like a job for a pool where state across multiple miners can be maintained.  Maintaining validation and reward allocation across a distributed network would be PhD material.

Regards,

--
bsunau7
May be the solution to the so called Multi-armed Bandit Problem can provides further insight. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-armed_bandit
Also read: Overcoming Limitations of Game-Theoretic Distributed Control by Jason R. Marden and Adam Wierman
www.cs.caltech.edu/~adamw/papers/price_of_BB.pdf
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September 12, 2014, 05:55:49 PM
 #3533

the font sucks but the ideas for different types of primes with unusual properties, i.e. with x number of consecutive zero's or any number
...
the variations are endless, not really useful from a 'scientific' standpoint,
agreed... our primes all have lot's of consecutive 0's when written in base 2.... not an interesting feature though.


do you remember when the rsa used to post the bounties for primes ??

then they just stopped,  i often wondered if they came up with a much more advanced way of factoring and deriving primes that they never bothered to share with anyone else,  probably far fetched but they did pay those bounties and some were for big money ,

yes, many of us still have this question... did they lost interest, or did they find a secret algorithm? probably they just knew the records would be broken soon and decided to use the money for other things...

take your time and think it over, the superblock is a pretty neat idea, and i certainly favor anything that can take riecoin ahead of prime coin in the record books and personally i don't care about the value the coin unlike almost everyone else......

i remember reading a paper about 3 or 4 years ago about possible scientific applications of 'unusual' prime numbers but i honestly can't remember what the application was , if it was 'real ' or just a proposal and exactly what they were looking for,  maybe i can find that paper !!

whatever you decide you have my support, especially now that i am comfortable building wallets on the btc 9.x codebase
thanks, and let me know if you find that paper!

if you fork the client and don't mind please suggest which versions of the tools you are using if different from the most recent bitcoin tools,

i remember the 8.x series of riecoin used qt 4.8.3

I use gitian to make the builds. I usually use the same as the latest available bitcoin release, since it's supposed to be well tested. Here are the latest deps: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/v0.9.2.1/doc/release-process.md they still use qt 4 for compatibility reasons.


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gatra
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September 12, 2014, 06:05:51 PM
 #3534

This kinds of discussions makes the value of Riecoin, it's lot more interesting than mixing and mashing hash algorithms!

Yes, this coin got me looking into ARM and SMID which I never had before.  I am pretty sure I've got some very clever tricks in my sieve which no one else has considered (well, aside from riecoin there isn't much use for a fast p6 sieve).

+1!

I am surely moving the goalposts here, but would it be possible to amortize the verification over many blocks?
Sort of a distributed partial Rabin-Miller (is that practical and can it be made provable?)
...
It all hinges on the provability of a partial Rabin-Miller test, which may be a pipe dream Smiley

This looks like a job for a pool where state across multiple miners can be maintained.  Maintaining validation and reward allocation across a distributed network would be PhD material.

yep, we are talking about millions of digits... so only verification can take days. For single primes, maybe not Rabin-Miller but this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas%E2%80%93Lehmer_primality_test or this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas%E2%80%93Lehmer%E2%80%93Riesel_test


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northranger79510
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September 12, 2014, 07:21:24 PM
 #3535

Any updates this week Gatra?

Huntercoin: H9kttkrQidiQMG9NibmTgjgCKqWJMAkAXD
Riecoin: Like us on https://www.facebook.com/TheRiecoinCommunity
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September 13, 2014, 12:06:54 PM
 #3536

do you remember when the rsa used to post the bounties for primes ??

then they just stopped,  i often wondered if they came up with a much more advanced way of factoring and deriving primes that they never bothered to share with anyone else,  probably far fetched but they did pay those bounties and some were for big money ,
yes, many of us still have this question... did they lost interest, or did they find a secret algorithm? probably they just knew the records would be broken soon and decided to use the money for other things...
They have a page to address exactly this question but it's a bit vague.
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September 14, 2014, 04:10:22 AM
 #3537

Any updates this week Gatra?

We're waiting for dga to merge the stratum code. I'm hoping he could make new binaries for Linux and Windows: that would leave miners no excuse for trying other pools.

I've started working on the superblock thing which feels like the new priority, I'm thinking on the easiest and safest way to implement the difficulty adjustments taking superblocks into account. I'm determined to break at least one record.


Thanks for keeping pushing me to write the updates!


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dga
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September 14, 2014, 03:20:36 PM
 #3538

Any updates this week Gatra?

We're waiting for dga to merge the stratum code. I'm hoping he could make new binaries for Linux and Windows: that would leave miners no excuse for trying other pools.

I've started working on the superblock thing which feels like the new priority, I'm thinking on the easiest and safest way to implement the difficulty adjustments taking superblocks into account. I'm determined to break at least one record.


Thanks for keeping pushing me to write the updates!

Argh - sorry.  This is still on my todo, I'm just lagging a little.  I will try to get it done by tomorrow.

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September 15, 2014, 03:02:24 PM
 #3539

could any guy tell the total volum of the ric now?
many thx.
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September 15, 2014, 03:46:05 PM
 #3540

could any guy tell the total volum of the ric now?
many thx.

You mean number of RIC generated so far? about 6.2 millions

https://chainz.cryptoid.info/ric/

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